This week we’ll hear from Mary Ann Sibley of MatterSpark. She’ll share three reasons people might not be lining up to volunteer in your church and a few small steps you can take to help lead people serving! To learn more about Mary Ann and get connected with her, check out www.matterspark.com.
Transcript:
Katie
Welcome to the Church Communications Podcast. I’m Katie Allred, it’s so nice to have you here. And today I am joined by Mary Ann Sibley. Mary Ann and I go way back, way back to last year, two years ago?
MaryAnn
Probably two. Let’s go with two.
Katie
Yes, two years ago. I think you’re the Engage conference of 2020. Thank you for being here. Why don’t you introduce yourself a little bit? Tell the people who you are, what you do.
MaryAnn
Well, my name is Mary Ann Sibley. I live in the upstate of South Carolina, but I’m originally from North Carolina. So basically I’m a southern girl, but was raised in military housing, so we didn’t move around as much as people did. So the short story and what I do now is based on the fact that I did not grow up in church. I was raised Buddhist, my mom is Japanese, and it wasn’t until I was the tender age of 40 before anyone even invited me to church.
Katie
And you were in the Carolinas this whole time, right? Come on, guys. Yeah, Carolinas are failing.
MaryAnn
Tell me about it. But it was that classic thing of, you know, I was in banking, I was a big wig vice president, traveling and all that. So I probably looked like, leave me alone. I got my act together. But eventually I went through a season of a divorce and depression. One suicide attempt, got moved myself and my two young boys into this cute little neighborhood that was backed up right behind some neighbors who just moved from South Carolina to start a church.
Katie
Yeah.
MaryAnn
And so for me, I remember always thinking that was weird because like you said earlier, there are churches everywhere. And I was used to seeing buildings and church buildings. So I did not understand, why would someone start a church? Surely this is a cult. I was convinced it was a cult.
Katie
Out of their house/
MaryAnn
So they were meeting in a school.
Katie
Come to our house to join the cult.
MaryAnn
They were meeting in a school, and they had lots of boys, and I had two boys, so their boys and my boys became friends. That’s how we really got connected. But I actually went to church to make sure they weren’t a cult because my boys were hanging out with them. So much I’m like, I need to see for myself. So anyways, you know, God knows what H e’s doing. And I met Jesus. I was asked to come on staff at that church, saw it grow when I attended and was scared to death about church and church people.
Katie
Bank executive to church executive.
MaryAnn
Church volunteer, first.
Katie
Okay.
MaryAnn
In children’s ministry.
Katie
That’s where they all start, that will be good for you. Children’s ministry.
MaryAnn
Well, here’s the thing for me, you’re going to love this. I actually did go to college. I have to put that disclaimer before I say the next part of the story is that people would ask me, I’m new to the church. I didn’t know anything about church, but I knew how to hold babies, like I’m a mom. So I said, like you said, I can go do that. And someone once asked me after church, standing on the sidewalk, they were like, “So, Mary Ann, what ministry are you in?” And I looked at her and I said, “I didn’t go to ministry school.” Those words came out of my mouth, Katie. Ministry, school. I mean, you talk about someone who knows, right? Or knew back then nothing about church language, church anything. And I just looked at her like, you’re crazy. I don’t do that. And our church was maybe about 150 people. And so when I stepped off staff in 2014, we’d grown to almost 10,000.
Katie
Well, okay. Well, if it grew to 10,000, I’d be like, this is insanity.
MaryAnn
It was insanity. It was awesome and crazy and confusing and overwhelming and beautiful and all the things.
Katie
And how long did that take?
MaryAnn
Within a couple of years, someone in our city gave the church some land and said, “Build a church”, because we were busting at the seams. And I remember standing out on the sidewalk and someone said, there were 200 people today, and everyone lost their minds. And I’m just standing there listening, going, “I think that’s good. I don’t know.” But then about a year or two after that, we started building the building, which was why they asked me to come on staff and oversee that. And we grew to 1000 practically overnight, and then it just went from 1000, 2500, but 5000. But I think to your point for today, I learned early the need for volunteers. Like, I grew up in church as a volunteer. I learned about the Bible serving with fourth and fifth grade kids, and I understood the value of that. And I looked around and go, I can’t do this by myself, nor should I, nor do I want to. So that really started the whole thing of the world of volunteers and bringing them in and making all the mistakes.
Katie
Why don’t you tell us about how maybe some reasons why people don’t volunteer at church.
MaryAnn
That’s a great question because I think I started asking people that very question that were serving and not serving. Because, again, I didn’t grow up in church. So when I met Jesus, I just thought, isn’t this what everybody does? Because there were men in the church, as a single mom at that time, who were loving on my kids and doing serving. And I just knew, “oh man, I need to do that for somebody else.” So when people weren’t stepping up serving, I was confused. And what I heard from them, one, what they actually told me and what I observed over the years is most people, to your point, aren’t going to sign up again because once they got out, they never would go back because it was like a ball and chain is the words they would use to me. They go, “Oh, Mary Ann, that was like a prison sentence. That was a ball and chain. I thought I’d never get out there.” And I thought, “Well, that really stinks.” So if people have had a bad experience and were burned out either from serving too much or in the wrong place, they’re not going to trust it again. I think people don’t serve, and I’ve seen people serve because of organization, because of lack of organization. They’re like, it’s confusing. I really don’t know what you’re saying. I’m a busy person. You want me to give up free time or my comfort? And you are speaking in half sentences and you don’t have a complete anything of what’s going on. I just kind of show up. Most people say, oh, show up and we’ll put you somewhere. So I know for me, if I hear that I’ve been to different churches to serve, I’m like, I’m going to need a little more information. So I think there’s confusion, lack of information, prior hard things that volunteers have gone through. And here’s one of the things that I have talked to churches recently, is that your current volunteers can be a deterrent for new volunteers. So imagine the person who is burnt out and they’re standing there, they look angry, they’re just trying to check the list or getting out. And you’re looking at that and a couple of things go through someone’s mind. It’s like, I don’t want to be whatever’s happening behind the scenes there. That to me reflects leadership or lack of leadership.So why would I want to join that? Or that person is miserable. And if I have to stand next to them, why would I want to do that or serve with them? So if they’re grumbling and they’re tired or they’re in the wrong spot or all the reasons they don’t really reflect the mission and the vision of what it means to really serve, sacrificially to serve, that could be the barrier in the wall that people look at and go, if that’s what you call serving here, not me.
Katie
Yeah. How do you get people to say yes, then?
MaryAnn
Well, you fix all the other things like, you have to sit down. One of the things I do with some church leaders, as I tell them, “I need you to think of why your ministry exists, why it matters.” So we used to sit down with our volunteers and say, we exist to… Now, you do that as a big church, and so you need to understand what your church’s mission, but whatever ministry you’re in, you have to align with that. But how specifically does your ministry support your church’s mission? Right? So, I mean, that can be easier or hard. And I would encourage people not to do it by themselves. Bring a couple of people in and brainstorm, nothing like a whiteboard. Nothing like a whiteboard. So when you get that in your head, like, oh, well, we exist… We want to provide, for instance, radical hospitality because of the radical love of Jesus. Well, what does that look like? So immediately, this is people think people at the door, person in the lobby, like, they start thinking of these post descriptions. And when I was still on staff at a church, there was a church down the road from us that came to a conference we put on, and of course, our volunteers were amazing. And afterwards and this was a conference that pastors all around the state and outside came to. I get a phone call one day from a pastor from the next city, and he said, “So my pastor came to your conference and was really blown away by your volunteers, because we just got written up in the local newspaper as the most unwelcoming church in the city.”
Katie
Oh, no. Can you imagine?
MaryAnn
Can you imagine?
Katie
No, in the newspaper.
MaryAnn
I’m like that’s pretty bad. So he said, I need to come talk to you. And he didn’t sound happy about it. We set up the meeting, and I remember telling my assistants, I’m like, “Here’s the thing. This guy’s downstairs waiting for me. If he asks me, ‘So how many greeters do I need?’ I’m just going to get up and walk away.” Because that seemed to be the only thing people wanted to know. I said, “That’s easy. I can look at a floor plan. I can walk your space. We can get that.” What’s hard is the ministry component of it, the why, the vision. So of course, we’re besties now. And his story and how God connected us, particularly with my prodigal son, is just mindblowing and beautiful. But that first day, we joke. He said, “I remember, Mary Ann, you came downstairs and I asked you how many greeters we needed, and you slammed the table.” And I argue that I didn’t slam it, but he said.
Katie
Somebody’s got to turn over tables here.
MaryAnn
Slam it or turn it over. And I looked at him and I said, “I’m going to ask you to read this book, and then if you still want to talk, come call me.” Yeah, I said. And here’s why. I talked to ministry, and his theme back to me was, I’m sitting there, I have my Masters in Divinity, and this chick here is trying to slam her hand and talk to me about ministry? And I’m like, yeah. And so I think that’s the first thing, because when we put that at the forefront, then everything we do spills out from that. Then when you’re talking to someone about, hey, you want to come serve with us? And instead of saying, hey, you want to go stand in a door? No, thank you. Hey, you want to look someone in the eye that Jesus died for and let them be seen? Have they really matter? You’re like, well, maybe so I would say that’s, like, before you start the logistics, you got to really have that.
Katie
Why and let’s be honest here, there’s not, like, a class, at least that I know of, at seminary. Now, I didn’t go to seminary either, Mary Ann. So, I mean, we’re just two women talking about good having not had Divinities of Ministry or whatever it’s called. M Divs. But the thing is, I don’t even know that there is a class dedicated to volunteerism on how to get people to volunteer at your church. Right? Like, most of the classes are about the Bible, and they should be. I’m not saying that they shouldn’t be at all, because somebody has to know all theology. However, the truth is that they just don’t know a ton about how to get people activated.
MaryAnn
Right.
Katie
How do we get people to move towards action? Because here’s the thing. I think the church does a great job of telling us what we can’t do, but not a great job of telling us what we can.
MaryAnn
That’s huge, Katie. That’s huge. Because one of the lingo you talked about how crazy and quick our church was growing, all of a sudden, there became a lot of rules or the guardrails were squeezing in, and everyone was afraid to do something because there was so much at stake. And I remember sitting one time in Huddle, and I looked at everyone and I said, here’s the guardrails, here’s the big picture. And I could see they were, like, going, well, what about this? What about this? What about this situation? I said, okay, stop. If you are faced with a situation or a person or guest or whatever, I just want you to ask this question to yourself what is the most loving thing to do right now? And then I want you to go do it. I will have your back. Because that’ll be ministry focused. We’ve prayed, we’ve prepared you. Leaders are vetted. Leaders were exactly where and who they needed to be focused on ministry. So I’m paying to every volunteer, just go, what’s the most loving thing to do that and do that, and you could just feel the room go *sigh.*
Katie
Right. That’s so much easier, almost.
MaryAnn
It’s like, oh, yeah, I can do that. Yeah, they get to they get to imagine that being loving to people, right? But I want to make another really quick point. You say there’s nothing about volunteering in church. I don’t see that elsewhere either. Like, I volunteer for secular other things, nonprofits, not for profit nonprofits, whatever. And they’re poorly done, a lot of them, and it’s like, but we want you to come back. And I’m like, Why would I come back to this crazy? Like, I know you want me back.
Katie
Why would I come back to this crazy?
Katie
I want that on a t-shirt haha.
MaryAnn
Yes I love a good t-shirt, Katie!
MaryAnn
So I think it’s pretty much universal, but I would also argue that if anywhere in the world should be elevating and leading the way about serving, it should be the Church. You know, the Red Cross, or other nonprofits. I’m not calling them out as bad, but any nonprofits should be looking and go, wow, they crush it. They crush it. Because here’s the thing. When I see volunteers, I don’t know if it was Flag Day or Memorial Day, but there was a small group of people who, in the heat, traveled the country to put flags on graves of veterans. And I’m like, Why would they do that? There is a common goal. There is a bigger vision. And so I’m like, So we can’t assume people won’t do things, right? That’s another big mistake. We go, oh, someone would never do that. You would be surprised.
Katie
Somebody might love to do that.
MaryAnn
Someone may love to do that.
Katie
Now, you might be taken away somebody’s calling by saying, hey, we need somebody to clean all these keyboards. Somebody might love cleaning.
MaryAnn
Truly, truly. Do you know what flutter flags are?
Katie
I have no idea what that is. Is that like, the flags on the side of the road?
MaryAnn
Yeah, they’re long. A lot of churches have them welcome, especially at multi site. So we had those obviously, those were, like, miserable to a lot of us. And so one day, I got my key leaders in the room, and I passed out note cards, just index cards, and I said write a smiley face on one side. I said, Now, I want you to write one thing that you wish I would ask you to do. And that’s all you had to do all day. It could be anything. Just write one thing down. So they’re writing. I said, now flip it over and write the one thing that you hate doing that you wish never make me do that. Yes. And they’re looking at me. I said, I know your leaders, and I know you love Jesus, but there are things you hate doing. It’s okay.
Katie
Yeah, that’s fine.
MaryAnn
Right? So I collected them all, and I started reading. It was hilarious because one said, if I could just talk to people and pray with them all day, that’s all. That’s all I want to do. And on the back, she wrote, never make me put up another flutter flag. Hate them. It’s like I get it. Here was another person. And on the back, he said, never make me have to pray for someone in person.
Katie
But he said he loved putting up flutter flags.
MaryAnn
He said I would put flutter flags all day. I said, you two need to be teammates and teach each other and go do.
Katie
There we go.
MaryAnn
Yeah. Permission to not like to do things. But also, here’s the thing. Learn that people would love to put flutter flags up even when you hate it.
Katie
You know what’s funny is I put up so many flutter flags. I worked camp for three summers.
MaryAnn
Oh, my goodness.
Katie
And so across the nation, I was putting up flutter flags across the nation. So I understand. I’ve been there, and I’ve been volun-told do a lot of things that I’m sure people who have done camp ministry collectively sigh and go, yeah, I completely know what you’re like, but back in my day, we had to tie each individual water balloon. Today you could just buy the thing that does like, a thousand at one time. How privileged they are. I had to make DVDs three at a time.
MaryAnn
Oh, you poor thing. Back in my day, we had to make sure our phone cord was long enough to drag the long cord and it wouldn’t get all ravely. So we can have privacy.
Katie
That’s true. But at least you have to, like, I don’t know, have to be on your phone. Sometimes I think the mobile phones are a blessing a curse, because at least if you did work summer camp back in the day before mobile phones, you were just gone.
MaryAnn
You mean your time was your time.
Katie
Yeah. Which is, like, amazing. Now I know when you’re on vacation, you’re still connected somehow.
MaryAnn
Yeah, I know.
Katie
Yes. That’s not what this podcast is about. But disconnect it’s important. Okay. All right, so that’s volunteering, you have, like, five ways, I think, to get people to volunteer, and I’d love for you to go over those.
MaryAnn
Okay. I have to make sure because I have lots of ideas, so I want to make sure I stick with the five all the ideas.
Katie
Well, don’t give away all the secrets.
MaryAnn
All right, so first of all, is what I talked about, right? It’s that your vision over tasks, that’s behind the scenes area. So now you look prepared, then you’re ready. The second thing is your invitation. So you think about inviting people. A lot of times it’s, hey, show up and do this. That’s not an invitation. So you think about an invitation to any party or event. They tell you the time, the place, how long it’s going to last. Like you give them where to park, where to show up, all that. So when you’re inviting people for the first time, I like to think of it as someone coming to see about serving as though you’re inviting them to see church for the first time. So we put all this energy and communications and pastor sermons about people coming to church. We need to do the same thing for people coming to volunteer. So then you have clarity and you tell them upfront that this is our onboarding plan and we have an offboarding plan. Up front. Someone the other day said their offboarding plan was I tell people they can leave whenever they want.That’s not a plan.
Katie
That’s not a good plan. It’s not seasons, right? Like semesters almost exactly serving and leaving and coming back because you’re serving forever, you’re probably going to want to just leave that church and start over another.
MaryAnn
Rigth, because you know what comes with that when you quit and it doesn’t seem like a natural celebratory off board is there shame and guilt creeps into that.
Katie
I look at you like you quit working with them.
MaryAnn
And then you have to hide when you walk in the door. That’s not church. So, I want to get rid of that. So we have a crazy offboarding plan. One step I love doing is giving people a tour. We assume so much. We assume they know what’s really going on. We assume that there’s really a need. We assume they know how we’re all interconnected. And so I would give our volunteers or potential people a complete tour and it just opened them up to go. I had no idea all this happened behind the scenes in children’s ministry.
Katie
I had no idea. I get a whole closet of props for the children.
MaryAnn
Right, I had no idea that this could be so much fun because I’m a single guy, I have no reason to be in children’s ministry. But I’m here going, this is rocking my world and I’m like, you need to serve here or again, remember we’re kingdom minded, not individual ministry minded. I would have people say, oh, my goodness, I don’t have kids but my neighbors do. I would have never known about this. I have to get my neighbors here with their kids. Crush the silo ministries. Don’t worry about someone’s going to steal my volunteers. Show them given the platter of goodness at your church. So that’s one way to really open people’s eyes about what serving is like and then like gives people an opportunity to and I mean truly just try it. A lot of times and I was at a church before COVID hit and I started serving and I signed up for a place and they said, just come and check it out and then see if you like it. I said, okay, cool. So my very first day of trying it out, it was like so you’re on the team now.
Katie
Well, they were like, all right.
MaryAnn
And there was no trying. And I checked with my husband. I said, did they let you try? He goes, no. So that people might go, oh, I don’t know it. So when we had people try it, we actually made fun name badges that said “Just looking, no pressure.”
Katie
Nice.
MaryAnn
And so that way any volunteer serving that day would see that. And they knew because we talked about it. You just encourage them. You answer questions, but you don’t say things like, so you’re on the team or you have to be with us. I said, they’re just looking. Like, think about going to a store. Don’t you hate when a salesperson is pressuring you to buy?
Right.
MaryAnn
I walk out. So just think about trusting God and know that if you steward them well, they can try it, and it’s okay to not like it at all. So there’s lots of things in that area. And then the last step, which is really the first step, because I talk a lot about that we need to have real teams versus just pools of people. And unfortunately, a lot of teams I’ve been on, or they call them teams, weren’t real teams. And there was no family. There was no connection. There was no real teamwork that was happening. It was just individuals who gathered. So that requires real leadership. And I’m not talking staff. I’m talking about boots on the ground, release, training them to lead well in ministry and what that looks like. So when people really realize that, oh, my gosh, you really mean it, I can try it, you give them the baby steps. You give them a tour. You give them clarity. You give them an opportunity to try it. We even had a process that allowed them to try something different. We wanted to let them know we’re so serious that you may not like this, because what I would say is, let’s say you want to serve in children’s ministry, but because you are serving and now you’re in that environment, you see something else that you never would have seen before, and you’re like, oh, my gosh, I didn’t realize I actually want to do that. We actually had a process and a thing where not a staff or leader, but another co-volunteer would come alongside you and say, what are some other fun things you think you might like to try? And when I would do my orientations, I had one team leader, and his name is Robbie, and he’d always say, when is your next orientation, Mary Ann? Can I show up? I said, anyone can show up at any time in my orientation. He would he knew when to show up, and he would just pop his head in and say, my team is the best team anyone wants to know. I bake cookies. He was an amazing baker, and people would say, how does Robbie get everyone on his team? I said, Because he’s a real leader, and he shows up. Know what I mean? So it became something not a talking head from me. And people were like, I want to be on his team.
Katie
My pastor would always say, the first reformation was about giving the ministry the first reformation was about giving the word back to the people. The second reformation is about giving the ministry back to the people. And it’s time. Yeah, right. It’s like, time to give these things back to the people. And how do we not just enable them but empower them to do that, right? And celebrate when they start and when they stop.
MaryAnn
Yes, celebrate.
Katie
I think that’s huge.
MaryAnn
We would always say, because people, for some reason, again, not growing up in church, Katie. So, you know, I was learning along the way because people look at me and they would say, wow, Mary Ann, we’re having the best time serving. And they were maybe greeting at the door, and I’m like, great. They said, no, you don’t understand. We never were allowed to serve at our other church. That was reserved for certain groups of people. I’m like, this is your church too. And so that’s one of the things we would say, look, this is your church too. So think of the person that if they walked in the doors and there was ten minutes left of the sermon, that’s how late they are. But they walk through the door and you would fall on your face and thank God. How would you want them to be treated and welcomed and loved and seen? This is your church. This is why we’re here. And so people started owning. A lot of people ask you how you get them to own it. I said, well, you have to let them own it. You have to give it away.Give it away. Give it away. Their church.
Katie
okay, so how can people reach you, connect with you, if they are dealing with figuring out volunteer ministries at their church?
MaryAnn
They can email me at info@matterspark.com. Because this is about igniting what matters most, and it’s God’s, people. So just send me an email.
Katie
Okay, awesome. Well, thanks so much for joining us on the podcast today.
MaryAnn
Thanks for having me, always good to talk to you, laugh with you.
Katie
Yeah, good to talk to you too.