Speaker 1: Church Communications Podcast. We want to help you become a church communications expert. We understand it can be a challenging and ever-changing role because we’ve worked in the church too, which is why we built a community with over 25,000 church leaders that are ready to support and cheer you on. Your hosts for the show are Katie Allred and Kenny Jahng, who want to help equip you to reach more of your congregation and community. This is the place where we’ll talk shop with fellow practitioners and professionals about what’s working, what’s not, and what’s next. Are you ready? Let’s get started.
Kenny Jahng: This episode is brought to you by Ramsey+, a money plan for real life. The brand new, all-access membership from Dave Ramsey’s company gives you the best money content, tools, and resources all in one place. Later on, we’ll talk about how your whole church, your whole organization can actually get plugged in. But until then, you can start a free trial of the Ramsey+ system over at www.daveramsey.com/cctrial. That’s www.Ramsey … daveramsey.com, sorry. daveramsey.com/cctrial. Try it out for yourself, and let us know what you think.
Katie Allred: Well, Kenny, how are you doing?
Kenny Jahng: Ah, fantastic. Cannot be any bit better. It’s one of those things where I’ve been having these ups and downs, these COVID ups and downs, these [crosstalk 00:01:40].
Katie Allred: The COVID ups and downs are really high and really low. They’re not in between. That’s what I miss about before the pandemic, was the betweenness of ups and downs. But, every other day, it’s like, “What’s today going to bring.” Right?
Kenny Jahng: Every other day, I’m like on an hour-to-hour basis, man. It’s been… It’s been a ride. But, yeah, there’ve been days where I’m all zoomed out. There have been days or weeks that I haven’t. And, this is one of those days that I am not. Looking optimistic, hope filled, and just a lot of enthusiasm. I’m actually having fun here. I like spending time chewing the fat, talking business with you, Katie, and so let’s just get to it.
Katie Allred: Yeah. Okay. So, today, we’re really talking about how your church should become a content producer. Here’s the thing. Your church already is a content producer. Even if you think that you’re not, you already are because the Sunday morning event, Sunday morning worship, the Sunday morning service, whatever you would like to call it, is content. Like, it is primarily content. The worship service itself is content. The songs are content. The sermon is really amazing content that your pastor’s producing week after week. And, so we should be using it. And, I guess my question for Kenny, I think he… Because he is like an expert at this. I think like the question is why your church needs to start thinking like being a content producer. Why is that?
Kenny Jahng: Well, I think there’s… One of the… So, I think you’re right. But, first, let’s call it out. You are a content machine. You’re on a seven-day production cycle, for the most part, if your service… If you hold services on Sunday, you’ve got this base layer, and then there’s all these other things that your church is doing. Whether or not you have a camera on there, are recording it or not, you are in this seven-day cycle. And, it’s one of the few organizations in our culture that produces that much new content on a regular basis.
Katie Allred: Agree [crosstalk 00:03:40]. Yeah, I mean, outside of like the news organization, I just can’t really think of any other-
Kenny Jahng: Local business.
Katie Allred: I mean-
Kenny Jahng: What about a local business?
Katie Allred: Yeah, a local business or a non-profit that’s creating content on a weekly basis that is applicable to anyone’s life. I just… I don’t know of any other thing that’s doing it besides the church. And so, yeah, we really need to think about what do we do with this content? I think for the longest, it was it lived for Sunday, and then it died.
Kenny Jahng: Yes, yes. But, today’s world is different, right? I like to call it we’re living now in Netflix nation. People love on-demand content. They love live content. There’s content all around us. And, that is honestly how people are consuming content. And, everyone says also, Katie, that there’s this demise of like everyone’s individualized, people that don’t have these shared experiences. But, look, you’ve got Netflix parties, watch parties. People have a communal experience. So, you’ve got just a whole smattering of options for how to engage with people, and that’s the number one thing. We want to engage with people in a way that is… It fits into their lifestyle, gets their attention, and then brings them into our community as a church.
Katie Allred: Yeah.
Kenny Jahng: And, so that’s… I think, from my point of view, it’s one of those things that you have to recognize the modality of how people engage today in culture with things. And, entertainment and content is all around them, especially digital. And, that’s the opportunity here.
Kenny Jahng: So, Katie, I would… I guess the next question in my mind after that then would be like, “Why should you as a church be focusing on like felt needs?” Like, if you’re embracing content production, what are you focusing the content on? And, we like to talk about felt needs as a target. Can you share a little bit of that philosophy?
Katie Allred: Yeah. So, even going back to episode one, you know, with Trey, felt needs really are what are the common struggles, you know, that your church is facing? And, not just the common struggles, but then also the common struggles of your community.
Kenny Jahng: Yeah.
Katie Allred: Today in COVID, we have some unique, common struggles. One being food needs. Another being money, like financial needs. Another being community needs, like just the need for community, like the need to belong somewhere, the need to communicate with people. You know, it’s really changed so much during COVID. And, your church is uniquely positioned to provide an answer for all of these needs. But, the question is really, are we creating content around those felt needs that help answer? And, so what is… You know, Kenny, what are some practical, constant ideas that churches can create to answer felt needs?
Kenny Jahng: Well, I think there’s… There, I think it’s like a blank canvas because… First of all, not many of the churches in the country or even your area are serving the felt needs of your community. And, so that allows you to want to experiment and see what fits into the DNA and personality of your church. But, I do think that… I think it’s just that this cornerstone idea of we are no longer in a society or a culture where people just assume that religion and salvation, how you get to heaven, that’s not assumed. That’s not on everyone’s like bucket list. And, so-
Katie Allred: Right.
Kenny Jahng: … trying to talk about felt needs and things-
Katie Allred: Not anymore.
Kenny Jahng: No, not in most communities. In fact, like if… I think you would be repelling people if you just went up to people in the grocery store or Home Depot in the aisles and say-
Katie Allred: It’s interesting how that’s changed in American culture, you know, in the last 200 years, right? Yeah. People are repelled by the idea. It was… You know, I remember Jonathan Edward’s Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God, and like it was very… I think that whole mentality was about the end of your life. Like, what did the end of your life look like? And, where do you go after the end of your life? And, people are not so focused on that right now. They’re very much Yolo, you know, that’s our culture, like instant satisfaction. What is in it for me right now? Because we’re not promised tomorrow, and they’re not thinking about tomorrow. And, so how do we reach a culture that is speaking into that, do you think?
Kenny Jahng: Yeah. So, I think it’s really being crisp on the felt needs. So, like, you know, just think of the common needs of most or many families in your community. It’s pressures from work, work worries, and that… It bleeds into relationship issues, how to structure those things. There’s biblical worldview approaches to how to have a healthy relationship with a partner or spouse, how to have a faith and work integration when you’re in the workplace, even if it’s in contrast with everyone else’s moral or ethical groundings. How to deal with money, money obviously is also at the top of the list. So, these are… Those are some of the common things. And, I think that’s something that’s… Those are not things that you should be allergic to or scared about or apprehensive about, but rather the other way around. Because in the end, you have the answer. You have a biblical, grounded worldview that allows people to give them a framework of thinking that is logical and that makes sense across all the different spheres of their life. Right?
Katie Allred: Yeah. So, what are some practical ideas for churches who want to start creating this content, you think?
Kenny Jahng: So, there’s a great church in Boston that we know. It’s called Grace Church. Our friend, Brian, who’s an executive pastor there, just this past week was actually on a webinar that they-
Katie Allred: Wow.
Kenny Jahng: … promoted to the general public. And, I think that’s just fantastic. I mean, first of all, how many churches do you know, conduct webinars for the public and, second, just-
Katie Allred: Yeah. They really should be though. Why not?
Kenny Jahng: It’s just one of those things where I think if you talk to Brian and his team, they just… They stumbled upon the idea and they said, “Why not? This just seems very logical.” So, what they do is they-
Katie Allred: Yeah, and what was that felt need? Yeah, what was it [crosstalk 00:09:57].
Kenny Jahng: Yeah. So, they tried… I think they’ve tried two different topics. One was in this COVID world and everyone going back to school and being concerned, et cetera. And, a lot of schools are forcing online education versus in-person. People were thinking like, “Oh, we should homeschool.” Homeschooling is relatively popular in the Christian circle. So, most churches probably have at least-
Katie Allred: Offer homeschooling.
Kenny Jahng: … one family that might be homeschooling. Yeah.
Katie Allred: Right, yeah.
Kenny Jahng: Yes. And, so doing a webinar, interviewing parents who have homeschooled to talk about the benefits, and the pros and the cons, and the approaches. What it literally is all about is something that I think is [attractional 00:10:37]. The other one was just personal finance. That’s, again, it’s a very common thing is the felt needs we were talking about. They’re attracting 50, 70 people to these webinars-
Katie Allred: Wow.
Kenny Jahng: … that are talking about those issues and sharing some real-life examples.
Katie Allred: And, those are 50 to 70 people who are not in their church, right?
Kenny Jahng: Yeah. The majority of those people, they’re doing Facebook ads or they’re doing flyers. They’re doing other promotion throughout the community, locally. And, with Facebook ads, you can actually do what we call geo-targeting. You put a stake in the ground and you can say, “Oh, within 30… 30 miles of here or whatever, you can target the general population [crosstalk 00:00:11:15].”
Katie Allred: Which is the smartest thing to do for the church, especially that geo-targeting because you don’t want to waste your ad money on the entire United States.
Kenny Jahng: No! No.
Katie Allred: I mean, don’t get me wrong. I think that you should, you know, hopefully witness. I mean, Jesus did call us to all of Judea or whatever. But, I do think that maybe you need to just focus on your target area. Like, 30 miles within… around your church probably is enough.
Kenny Jahng: Well, and most churches don’t know that’s available. Right? So, they look at Facebook ads. They just think it’s a money pit. If you do it strategically and with some boundaries, I think it can be helpful.
Kenny Jahng: So, anyway, they’re recruiting 50 to 70 to webinar. And, what I love about what happens is… So, I would… So, again, on Wednesday, it was Wednesday evening because most adults work, and so it was in the evening. I was on there, and they were answering questions. And, the chat window was just… It was-
Katie Allred: Blowing up?
Kenny Jahng: It was live. People… Yeah, it was blowing up. And, they were asking about, you know, “You referred to this book. Where do you… What’s the name of the book? You referred to this-
Katie Allred: Yeah. “What’s the curriculum that you’re using?”
Kenny Jahng: Yeah, that kind of thing. And, so he referred to a class that they have in their church. And, at the end, he offered everyone, “Hey. We’re going to start up another round for the class. If you’d like to sign up, we will follow up with everybody here.” And, so everyone was like, “Yeah. How do I sign up? How do I sign up?” He could not get that information-
Katie Allred: Keep up with it.
Kenny Jahng: … out quick enough. And, so actually what happened is that class is actually an FPU class, the classic Dave Ramsey Financial Peace University class. And, because we’re in COVID, everything’s being done online, and so he’s inviting everyone to a six-week class. This was abbreviated. I think FPU is actually nine weeks now, nine class sessions. They’re doing six online. And, what they’re doing is they’re flipping the classroom like Khan Academy. People watch the video lesson on their own, and then they come and discuss it every week for six weeks. And, so that’s the next step.
Katie Allred: Yeah. Trey told me even that they’ve built some, I don’t know, Zoom tools or something that-
Kenny Jahng: Yes, yes.
Katie Allred: … people can use while teaching FPU. And, so for small groups specifically, there’s a lot more information and stuff that they’ve created specifically for people teaching these. And, he said he really sees… And, they’ll do kickoff parties and stuff in the office for you. And, he really does see that that is going to become more relevant and definitely more of the normal as we move forward, which I think is really interesting.
Kenny Jahng: Yeah, absolutely. So, I mean, that’s just one way of doing it. I think, Katie, maybe we could just brainstorm here maybe one or two other ways to talk about… You know, like parenting is a felt need, you know, or-
Katie Allred: Sure, okay. So, if we were going to talk about parenting, okay? If we were going to do felt needs about parenting, what would be a landing page… For example, what would be a landing page? You’re a parent. I’m not, so you’re going to have to tell me when you’re a parent, what do you search for for like teenagers?
Kenny Jahng: Yeah, absolutely. So, I [crosstalk 00:00:14:19]-
Katie Allred: Maybe like how to discipline your teenager?
Kenny Jahng: Yeah. I mean, that honestly is one of those things that parents… It’s all the things that parents talk about on the sidelines of soccer while their kids are playing soccer and stuff. It’s all the stuff that, you know, when you have coffee with the parents, you end up talking about the struggles and the challenges, right? “My kid is acting out. What do I do?” Or, problems at school, and many times it’s problems that our child has with relationships at school, whether it’s bullying online, whether it’s, you know, pressure, social pressures, things like that. So, I think an easy way to do that is honestly some support groups or affinity groups.
Katie Allred: Sure.
Kenny Jahng: Like, in this day and age, creating some Zoom rooms where you have some drop-ins and you talk about one or two principles about biblical parenting, I think is… would be great. I think those [crosstalk 00:15:13].
Katie Allred: You know what I think would be great?
Kenny Jahng: Another felt need is… Yeah, go ahead.
Katie Allred: Hold on, hold on. I’m going to pause you. I think what would be great, if you want to find these parents, is to create a Facebook group for parents in your area that is owned by the church, but not necessarily marketed by the church. So, what I mean by that is like it’s owned by a member of your church and they take ownership of it. But, at the end of the day, it’s not overtly churchy. And, that way, you know, all people of all, you know, steps and face… you know, steps of life and faith can join in there, and then share really great, you know, parenting information in general, share parenting, like share great events for kids and for teens and for that kind of stuff that happen in your area in there. And, then use that as a funnel for getting people to come to these Zoom events through your church.
Katie Allred: Like, these webinars that we’re talking about with really great, interesting topics. Like, you know, “My child’s acting out. What do I do? How do I discipline?” You know, “My child’s grades are going down. What do I do?” So, you know, I think that would be just so beneficial for so many churches. It starts… And, that’s not even with ads, right? That’s like free.
Katie Allred: And, so what you can really do, what’s really cool is you can actually get in your church, tell like 100 people, right, what you’re doing, maybe in an email. Send them an email and say, “Hey. We’re creating this Facebook group for parents. We chose you to be a parent in this group, and we want you to add other parents. We want you to add people who don’t go to our church. We want you to add people that you think are far from Christ, but could use help parenting. And, don’t tell them, you know, but our plan is to help them eventually… This would be an easy way for you to invite them to church, to take the next step for church.” And so, you know, what does that look like?
Katie Allred: And so, yeah, I think just creating those parenting groups and naming it specifically after your local area. So, if I live in Mobile, Alabama, it would be “Mobile, Alabama Parents.” Okay?
Kenny Jahng: Yes!
Katie Allred: That’s already a magazine. Okay? But, so it already has some traction, but I don’t think they have a Facebook group. And so, you know, name it that-
Kenny Jahng: Imagine if you owned it though. Imagine if you were the facilitator for Mobile, Alabama Parents Group and that anyone who’s a parent can join that. I think that would be wonderful. Though, that’s the thing-
Katie Allred: I think you would easily get 1000 to 3000 people in there quickly. It wouldn’t take a lot, I don’t think.
Kenny Jahng: So, I think the one thing to flag here is that we are flipping the model of how pastors and leaders might be thinking about what we’re trying to do here. Typically, the old school model has been you need to force Christ onto people, force the issue and convert them to Christ, and then you build community with those people. And, here, what we’re doing is the other way around and saying, “Let’s build community and relationships first.” Earn the right to talk about Christ. Earn the right in terms of relationship with people. Earn the trust. And, then we can bring them along and introduce Christ into them. You don’t need to lead with overtly religion, in terms of a topic, with every single thing that you do.
Katie Allred: Which is what Jesus did, right?
Kenny Jahng: Yes.
Katie Allred: He was not overtly religious. He did not like the religious people who were overtly religious. He wanted to come alongside you, serve you in the felt need that you had, build a relationship with you. And, then after he has built this relationship, has served you, people were like, “Oh, I should follow you.” Like, “You are a wonderful human. This is… I want to have a relationship with you.” Right?
Kenny Jahng: Yes.
Katie Allred: And, that’s all that we want is people to have a relationship with Christ. And, so in order to have a relationship with Christ, they first, most of the time, have to have a relationship with you because Christ lives in you. And so, you know, how can we build these relationships without intimidating people and scaring them off first? It really is one of those very… I don’t know, it’s one of those really hard things to do, but is worth it long-term if you could figure out the strategy. It’s funny because you said it’s the new way. But, too, Kenny, it’s almost an old way.
Kenny Jahng: Yeah, it is.
Katie Allred: Churches have been building affinity groups for a long time. You know, they had basketball teams and kickball leagues doing this kind of same thing in the past, but they still put this overtly Christian like… Like, “This this is this church’s basketball league,” or whatever. And, so somebody might sign… A dad would sign up for this basketball league, but he would never actually show his face on a Sunday morning. And, so this is a different way of doing… gaining those relationships, but doing it online where people really are right now. They’re already there. They’re not joining a basketball league anytime soon because of COVID. So, this is the easiest way to kind of start those relationships that we can build a bridge to gaining the trust so that we can eventually tell them about Christ.
Kenny Jahng: Absolutely. I think one of the, you know, the things that you can do in that parenting group then after you have traction and engagement, then you can peel off. And, whether it be book clubs or other things that you might do in smaller groups where relationships really do flourish, where it’s like, “Oh, I’m meeting Katie, and we’re interacting regularly on a much smaller basis instead of a group of 1000 or more.” Then, we actually have that relationship that could go offline, and then turn into, “Hey. Our church is doing a book club on this. Our church is doing…” You know, just inviting them to events, et cetera. Those are the types of things that I think, you know, work on felt needs.
Kenny Jahng: You know, finances right now are important because people are unemployed. They’re stressed out. You know, getting out of debt is a huge issue. You know, pairing up with a financial planner or a financial coach in your local community might be something worthwhile where you’re saying, “Hey. We’re going to create this group locally, and have a free resource here to answer questions about personal funds.”
Katie Allred: Yeah, and Dave Ramsey does have coaches now. And, of course they have endorsed local providers as well. So, I mean, it’s probably worth looking into those resources. But again, it doesn’t just have to be about parenting.
Kenny Jahng: No.
Katie Allred: It could be about financial advice, like we just said. Like, you could create a group that’s like Mobile, Alabama Financial Club. I don’t know. You know? People would be like intrigued enough that they’re like, “Huh. What does this mean?” And, then create-
Kenny Jahng: Hobbies and interests, right?
Katie Allred: Yeah. I mean, yeah, dogs. That’s a big one, right? Mobile, Alabama Dogs. Yeah, it’s a huge one, right? That’s a big opening. You could just love knitting, and that could be your felt need. People want to talk about knitting. Okay, that’s fine. There’s literally so many different kinds of groups that you could create. But, the thing is is you have to create it. You have to take ownership of it. It takes time. It’s not something that’s going to suddenly happen overnight most of the time. I have seen it happen overnight for… You know, there was a community in New Orleans that created a group right when COVID started. And, within 24 hours, they had 7,000 members. And it was literally called like NOLA Needs, or something like that, or West… something like that. It was called NOLA Needs or something like that.
Kenny Jahng: Yeah, NOLA Needs, you’re right. North Louisiana, right, NOLA Needs.
Katie Allred: Yeah, I think so. And so, anyway, it was just crazy how quickly they gained so many members, and it became incredibly helpful. There were some really amazing stories that came out of that from people who weren’t even, you know, members of their church, how they were giving back and helping people. And so, I mean, that’s a group that was literally created for needs. Like, it was literally called “Needs,” and people joined it uber quickly. I mean, it was on the news and everything. So, I mean, this does work.
Katie Allred: You can also just join groups that already exist, neighborhood groups, those kind of things that give back, give, you know, great advice, go in there and answer questions and be extremely helpful. And, that’s one way to do it. Especially if you’re intimidated by it, I would get involved in a group that’s already existing, and then see how they do it. But, if anything, man, I just really want to challenge people to create some groups that lead to really great change because of these felt needs that they’re answering in their community.
Katie Allred: You know, we can create great content that feeds to these felt needs too, and we’ve talked about that in several other podcasts. We talked about it in our last season, how you can create landing pages, and key words, and those kinds of things, which you need to do as well. But, there’s ways to meet people where they’re already at, online, and this is just one.
Kenny Jahng: Yeah. And, I think people will be surprised also of just how many… People are looking for community and they’re looking for… Like, that dog example, I was just thinking like my area, there is… And, it’s not, I don’t know… It’s not online. I don’t think it is. And, you could create one online, a Facebook group, but there’s a corgi dog group that they have an annual-
Katie Allred: Yeah.
Kenny Jahng: Do you know what a corgi… those small corgi dogs?
Katie Allred: Yes.
Kenny Jahng: And, so they do a meet up-
Katie Allred: The queen has corgis.
Kenny Jahng: Yes. So, they do a meet-up at the local dog park, and like 400 or 500 corgis come in one day [crosstalk 00:24:49]-
Katie Allred: Wow!
Kenny Jahng: … the dog park. And, it’s just… It’s a crazy, crazy affair. I’ve seen photos of it. But, that’s a community. Right? And, that’s something that you can actually build up. But, even… I was just thinking about our friend, Beau, who is Lunchbox Dad on social for parenting. There’s… People are always looking for, “How do I cook interesting meals for my kids, that they’ll actually eat?” And, you can feature, you know, fun tips and recipes and things like that. Crock-Pots! There’s a whole Crock-Pot community in every single town, right?
Katie Allred: Oh, man. People love the Crock-Pot.
Kenny Jahng: Meal prep, meal prep groups. There are so many ideas out there that I think that the whole point is start one and see what happens. And, your mission right now is to expand your circle of influence so it’s not just your building. You don’t have your building anymore right now for a lot of churches. And, so how do we do it in other ways? Felt needs is definitely a way to do that.
Katie Allred: Yeah. So, this podcast started talking about content producing, and ended with creating groups, and I like it.
Kenny Jahng: Well, I think it’s hand-in-hand, right?
Katie Allred: I think that they both feed into each other. Yeah. I think 100% they feed into each other. And, I think… I don’t know. I think churches need to figure this part out. They needed to figure it out before the pandemic. Obviously, you know, Kenny, I have been preaching this since 2016. This is not new for me. I’ve been literally saying the exact same thing for four years now. And, I’ve seen a lot of churches and I’ve seen a lot of people gain so much from it when they do implement it. But, it’s always scary to start. So, get started, and then, I think, you know, God will bring… God brings the harvest. You just have to start. You know, you just have to get started.
Kenny Jahng: Well, I think that the thesis to this episode, basically, is you need to be a content producer. You need to think about felt needs. And, then that could be a driver for the type of things that your church is known for and the connection point. And, that’s how you produce content. Part of the problem with content production in the churches that you and I coach and consult with a lot of times is writer’s block. They just don’t know what… They just want to throw out more-
Katie Allred: Have no idea what to talk about.
Kenny Jahng: … Bible verses and that’s… They think that that is the thing that’s going to attract everybody. That will attract some people who are curious and seeking, but that’s not the entire decision spectrum.
Katie Allred: Right.
Kenny Jahng: And, if you want to focus in on some felt needs that the community has, that’s going to open the door and let you be a content producer that you’re just going to find tons of ideas to start running with basically. So-
Katie Allred: Yeah, I agree.
Kenny Jahng: Yes, absolutely. So, I think that’s the thesis and I think you’re right. It comes down to social. Social is the tool that’s at your fingertips. And, I love that we’re always coming back to these best practices that… Katie, like even you’re leading our entire community of 27,000 church leaders inside a group, and then you’re talking about how to use groups for their own purposes. This is just one of the… It’s just another example or another way to add to that list, right? Yeah,
Katie Allred: Yeah, I think so. And, so in conclusion, you know, we’ve been talking a lot about all these different felt needs. But, when it comes to finance, when it comes to the things about money, I think the Ramsey Team has got you covered.
Kenny Jahng: Yes.
Katie Allred: Figuring out… Giving everyone in your church or organization the tools that they need to budget, and save, and take control of their money is easier than ever with Ramsey+. And, you can use that with an online, virtual small group that you can start on Facebook and lead to Zoom. It’s Financial Peace University and so much more Ramsey+, so exciting. The Ramsey+ Team has put together a demo webinar you can watch at daveramsey.com/ccwebinar. Again, that is daveramsey.com/ccwebinar. So, go and check it out. Thanks for joining us today. We are so happy to have you, and we will see you next time.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the Church Communications Podcast with Katie Allred and Kenny Jahng. If you liked our show today and want to learn more, you can join our Facebook group with over 25,000 church leaders. Simply search for “church communications” on Facebook. And, if you liked today’s episode, please consider subscribing and leaving us a review. It’s the most impactful way you can help us reach more church leaders and equip them to become better communicators for the church. And, finally, don’t forget to check out our website at churchcommunications.com. Thanks for listening.